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Download file | Play in new window | | Speakers: Katie Wells, Robyn Spangler | Download transcript
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Last time I interviewed Robyn we discussed skin health, especially as it related to acne. In this episode we’re taking a broader look at skincare and how we can have our best skin. Skin issues like psoriasis, eczema, and even dry skin are an indicator that there’s something going on internally. Robyn helps her clients decipher what’s causing their skin conditions and today she’s sharing that on the podcast.
Robyn is a functional dietitian and nutritionist who takes a root cause approach to dermatological problems. Many of us struggle with a variety of skin issues that can change with age, but there’s hope and help available! While conventional approaches typically recommend medications and topical products, Robyn gives some insight on what we can do at a cellular level to help our skin.
I love her analogy that our cells are like grapes, and when they’re dehydrated or damaged, they turn into little raisins! We talk about how to affect hydration and nutrition at a cellular level for whole body health that includes glowing skin. Robyn shares her thoughts on the sunscreen debate and a surprising reason why certain metals and toxins could be wrecking havoc on our skin health.
We covered so much in this episode and I learned a ton!
Katie: Hello, and welcome to the wellness mama podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com. And in this second episode with Robyn Spangler, I am back with her to deep dive on some other skin care and skin related topics. If you missed our first episode, we talked all things acne. We really did a deep dive on understanding the different types of acne at a root cause level, how some of the common solutions are actually contributing to the problem and so much more.
And she’s back in this episode to dive deep on topics like eczema and psoriasis and perioral dermatitis, as well as general ways to support the skin, including some ways I learned about as well. We even delved into the controversial topic of sunscreen and her take on that, as well as some really important key takeaways that we can all do to improve our skin.
Robyn is a functional dietician nutritionist with a passion for using food and lifestyle to support our whole body, but especially our skin. Which became a passion for her after she had a personal battle with psoriasis, and she now believes that our skin should be our favorite outfit and helps people to achieve that.
So without any further ado, let’s learn from Robyn Spangler. Robyn, welcome back. Thank you for being here again.
Robyn: Thanks. I’m ready to dive in.
Katie: Well, I will link to our first episode in the show notes. That one went really deep on the topic of acne and all of the potential reasons it can occur, all of the ways to approach it at a root cause level. And there’s a whole lot of really actionable takeaways in that one. And in this episode, I would love to switch gears and build on what we talked about in that one and understanding the root cause approach.
But maybe go deeper on some other skin things like eczema and psoriasis and/or simply just dry skin or loss of skin sort of appearance as we get older. As well as a deeper understanding of how do we best nourish our skin from the inside out even if we’re not dealing with an acute thing like acne or psoriasis or something.
So to kind of step broadly into that, can you maybe walk us through some common misconceptions when it comes to skin health and also some common ways we can support our skin from the inside out?
Robyn: Absolutely. One of the biggest misconceptions that we’re often having to help clients rewire is the food fear around skin issues or just skin in general, because you’ll see tons of information on dairy is bad for the skin or gluten is bad for the skin or peanuts, chocolate. There’s lots of foods that get demonized for various reasons. And especially, especially when we’re talking about something like eczema and psoriasis. There are a lot of elimination diets out there and I always like to encourage people to look at that relationship a little bit differently because I know it’s easy to look at the food and blame that for a skin flare.
But what we really want to do is think bigger about the food is landing in a certain environment. And if that environment is overreactive for any reason, then you’re going to create, it can create a skin issue, can create lots of different symptoms. Maybe it’s hormonal, maybe it’s pain. But in this case we’re talking about skin. So what we do with clients is let’s actually fix the environment that the foods landing in. Let’s fix the gut. Let’s fix how the immune system is speaking. Let’s work on the nervous system so that you can actually widen the diet and enjoy your social life and enjoy foods without fearing the reaction or without physically having the reaction.
And a lot of times we’re working with clients to be able to strengthen their immune system, gut health, nervous system, et cetera, and then working on bringing foods back in. And it’s exciting to see them be able to widen their diet and not have the reaction because it actually wasn’t the food that was the problem it was the environment.
Katie: I think, yeah, to highlight what you just said, this is such a huge key for, it sounds like for skin health, but I would say actually across the board in a lot of ways. I did for many years, very strict AIP type elimination diets when I had all kinds of stuff going on. And what I realized over time is I was asking, for one the wrong questions. Because my goal certainly wasn’t just to be able to be on a more restrictive diet that got continually more restrictive my whole life. Nor was my goal to get better at eating a highly restrictive diet. So instead I started trying to ask the questions of what’s going on that my body’s not wanting these foods right now and how can I help it get to a place where it’s no longer freaked out by these foods if I eat them.
And slowly over time I was able to rebuild and now can say truly there’s no food I can’t eat. There’s some I still prefer to avoid, but nothing that sort of freaks my body out. And it sounds like that’s what you’re saying here too. But are there kind of, are there common triggers when it does come to the skin and or is there like a short term phase where often it’s helpful for people to just be a little bit restrictive with the goal of kind of rebuilding their gut resilience and adding things back in?
Robyn: Great question. And yes, this definitely depends on what’s going on with the individual, but if someone, if their immune system is very overreactive and it’s almost where they feel like anything they eat triggers their skin, then we may need to do a short term period of elimination to calm it down so that we can move into a repair phase.
And this is really just when you get into the nuance of how the immune system works and the immune system might be confusing aforeign invader, like a virus, with gluten protein or the dairy protein. And so it actually, it’s called molecular mimicry where the body is actually confused and it is creating an immune response to those foods. So in certain cases, we will temporarily pull those foods out just to calm this overreaction down, and then we can start moving forward on some of that retraining and that can take time. This is not an overnight thing, but that way the person physically can get some relief and get, I mean, there’s a lot of mental components to this and getting hope and moving forward and getting some results can create a lot of momentum. And then we can actually start doing some of the deeper work. And in terms of common foods, especially when we’re talking about eczema and psoriasis, I will say gluten is a common one.
I mean, that is known to create some issues within the gut and adding to or worsening what’s called leaky gut, which then allows these other proteins or antigens from foods to get in and kind of confuse the immune system. So that would be one food that if I’m speaking very generally would be one that is more commonly associated with some of those skin flares.
Katie: That’s helpful to know, but also not so black and white as every person dealing with X, Y, Z skin infection must avoid X, Y, Z food or dairy is always a problem or gluten is always a problem. And like I said, I do think personally, there’s a time and a place for at least being cyclical or for like varying what’s going into our body.
I try to now approach this… kind of my paradigm shift was not from a restriction perspective, but from like a nutrient first perspective. As one theory I have been kind of developing over time is that our body will keep craving food in its wisdom if we’re not giving it the very basic micronutrients and building blocks and minerals it needs.
But we just often feel that as a craving for calories. And so I think understanding like deeply nourishing our body in a different way. For one, it lets us come from a positive perspective of how do I maximally nourish versus a negative perspective of what I’m restricting, but also seems like it’s really helpful in kind of cyclically supporting the body. So one thing I do now is a few times a year, not a restrictive diet, but I’ll go on a hyper nutritious focused diet for a couple of weeks. That is also by nature lower in things like processed food or gluten or dairy, just because they’re not as nutrient dense as foods like meat and fermented foods or whatever it may be.
And I feel like that little reset helps my gut stay resilient, but also just is so helpful in like kind of making sure my body’s stores of all those things are staying up there, you know.
Robyn: Yeah, and honestly, that brain reframe is physically important to do because the emotion… this is a whole area of study called psychoneuroimmunology, where the emotional state that your body is in has a physical shift to your immune system. If you’re in a state of fear, you have higher inflammatory levels.
And so you even just reframing that from a fear based restriction to a nourish based mindset that does something to your brain and your physical body, which is just helping you on a stress level. Physically speaking or biologically speaking, so that too is a great reason to do it that way.
Katie: So I’d love to also get to dive deeper a little bit on specific skin conditions, because with a lot of mom listeners, what I do hear a lot from other moms about is kids with eczema at various times. And it does seem like sometimes they grow out of it or sometimes it’s worse at certain times of year, or they are able to identify like maybe eggs make it seem to flare for this particular child. But it seems like there could be a lot going on when it comes to something like eczema. Are there any generalities? I know you explained so well in the first episode that with the root cause approach, there’s going to be individuality for each person that they get to figure out.
But first of all, maybe explain what’s going on in the body when someone has eczema and are there any commonly or almost universally helpful things or universally not helpful things?
Robyn: Yeah, well, most of the time what’s going on is some sort of immune system miswiring with eczema. We don’t see as much of a hormone connection like we would with acne, for example. So with eczema, we’re looking mostly at the immune system. And then we’re looking, okay, within that, what, where’s the miswiring?
Where is there an over, why is the immune system maybe overreacting? What is it overreacting to? And sometimes it’s, you know, environmental, sometimes it’s exposure. And there’s studies that certain… I think this is out of California, but there was a study that essentially showed those kids who live next to a highway had a higher incidence of eczema.
So we have to consider environmental exposures as well. But that’s really the big picture thing that we’re looking at with eczema. And then from a root cause lens, we may be diving into where can we strengthen the immune system within the gut? Where can we strengthen the immune system within nutrition and minerals? Where can we strengthen it within ensuring that there’s not excess of metals or iron or something that’s more on the toxic side. And that’s where from a root cause lens we have to do the proper testing to figure out where does this individual need, you know things dialed or things opened?
Katie: That makes sense. And is that related to or kind of entirely different than something like psoriasis? I had a family member who had pretty severe psoriasis for a long time, and I’ve definitely seen it seems like it can be a very intense experience. Is that similar to eczema in whatever’s going on with the immune miswiring? Or is there something else different going on with psoriasis?
Robyn: Yes, that’s pretty similar, it just presents differently on the skin and there actually can be some hormonal components to psoriasis. Some women will find a cyclical pattern sometimes too much progesterone or even certain medications can trigger it and make it worse, but generally speaking, psoriasis and acne are going to be more similar when it comes to root causes than acne.
Katie: Got it. And then I know it’s not necessarily maybe described as like a condition in particular, but I know a lot of people experience just dry skin and or like skin seems to maybe get drier as we get older. I know I’ve experienced that. Are there key either lifestyle factors, nutrients, or even topical things we can do that help protect our skin barrier and how it looks and feels as we get older?
Robyn: Yes, I love this topic. There’s, of course, there’s topical components because, especially just if you’re in a drier season or it’s the winter, using the right topicals to help ensure that you’re not losing water by putting products on that are just pulling water out of your skin. So that’s an important piece, but I think what’s more overlooked is actually the nutrition part. So I know in our previous episode, we talked about cellular health and I talked about little shriveled up raisins versus grapes. Well, if you’re struggling with dry skin, you can probably assume you’re struggling with little cells that are little raisins. And with dry skin, we especially want to think about what’s called the phospholipid bilayer or the, the grape skin is how I describe it.
And that is an area that we can do a lot with, with food and nutrients, specifically the types of fats that you’re eating. And so focusing on olive oils and butter and coconut oil and avocado and really healthy nourishing, especially monounsaturated fats is going to help strengthen that grape skin, which helps your hydration of your cells, therefore helps the hydration of your skin. And then one of, probably the most important nutrient for this grape skin is vitamin E. And vitamin E kind of combats or fights against inflammatory fats in our diet. Even if you have a really healthy foundation, it is hard to avoid damaged fats. I mean, it’s in any processed food. If you have, you’re just going to be exposed to that unless you’re eating the most perfect squeaky clean diet. And so vitamin E is actually harder to get in foods. Unless you’re eating lots of wheat germ or it’s, it’s just harder to get in, in the amounts that we would really need to combat the damaged fats. So that’s one of the reasons, one of the most common nutrients that we recommend to clients is actually vitamin E. It’s a fat soluble vitamin, but it is the most dominant vitamin in that cell wall of the grape skin. So vitamin E plus healthy fats plus minerals and hydrating that cell, that combination is extremely important for hydrated skin. And so I think topicals get a lot of attention, but my goodness, do those things get overlooked?
And they really are powerful for helping you fight or combat dry skin, especially if it’s a chronic thing.
Katie: That makes sense to me. And I love your approach of mineral mocktails because I feel like that’s a fun, for one alternative to alcohol that probably tastes great. And that has the mineral benefit. And that also makes so much sense to me with the healthy fats. I feel like that was a thing we did a disservice to ourselves for several decades when we were like, we were all avoiding salt and trying to eat low sodium and trying to be low fat.
I was like, from that, nutrient first perspective I was talking about, I feel like that is the opposite of what our body needs and craves. So of course it would be sending some loud signals to us to get us to try to consume more foods to get those if we’re not getting enough because they’re so important.
What about some of these more obscure ones that I see floating around on social media right now, like black seed oil or pumpkin seed oil or other ones that are claimed to support skin and hair. Do you see any benefit to those and or people want to try them? Is there any downside to those?
Robyn: Are you meaning topically with those?
Katie: I think I’ve seen both topically and people like consuming them.
Robyn: Yeah. It depends on what the reason for it is. When it comes to orally, sometimes there are certain nutrients with those oils that will have a hormonal benefit. But honestly we don’t use it with clients. We don’t think that it’s making it that much of an effective change. There’s many other things that you can do that are going to be more effective. Topically, it honestly just depends on how the skin responds to it because some of those oils may actually be feeding a fungal infection. So it could be making the skin worse and the oil, depending on what type it is, may or may not do much for actual penetration into the skin. So most of the time what the oils can do is create a barrier for helping whatever’s underneath it, stay with the skin and be absorbed well.
I’m actually a fan of using oils on the skin. I just don’t think most of the time you need to spend a ton of money on expensive ones to actually get the benefits. That being said, there are individuals who are very sensitive to pore cloggers or oils on the skin. And if that’s the case, and that you would only know this by experimenting, but if that’s the case, then oils on the skin probably aren’t a match for you.
Katie: Okay, and I’m going to ask maybe a semi controversial question without knowing from researching you how you’re going to answer, and I’m okay if we totally disagree on this. But I’m curious about any recommendations for natural skincare and specifically diving into the topical sunscreen topic. And I will say ahead of time going in, my personal opinion, which is not advice to anyone else, is I have been very anti-sunscreen personally and only personally for years and I actually think we need sunlight never burning, but just natural light on our skin. So that’s the bias i’m coming from but I would love to hear your perspective on that.
Robyn: Yeah, we’re actually on the same page there with some caveats, because everything’s always going to be if this, you know, there’s exceptions. I am not a fan of chemical based sunscreens at all from the hormone disrupting parts of that. And I would say just in general, endocrine disruptors in skincare products in general, not a fan of. That being said, the clean skincare market can also be risky because a lot of times there are products that won’t add any sort of preservatives and therefore you’re at risk for infections and bacteria in the product that can also be a problem for skin. So there’s pros and cons to both.
But generally speaking, we would recommend looking for truly clean based products that also are made with a healthier version of a preservative so that you’re not risking infection. When it comes to the sunscreen topic, also not a fan of chemical based versions for I’m assuming similar reasons, especially when we get into the hormone disrupting chemical part of it. I would also agree that sun exposure is extremely important for us. The challenge gets to be with the risk of burning and the damage that does to skin. And here’s where we get down into the cellular stuff again, is because a lot of individuals don’t have healthy cells and have high amounts of damaged fat intake and not enough vitamin E like internally, that actually increases the risk for sunburn.
And so what I don’t love is individuals not using any sun protection. And by that, I can mean hats, clothing. If there’s no sun protection at all, and you don’t have healthy fatty acids or vitamin E, your risk of skin burning and all the studies about the risks of, sun on the skin is worse if you don’t have a healthy foundational cell status. And most people don’t. So that’s just the only reason where I’m a little, I’m a fan of sunscreen in the right way. Personally, I use hats. Where most of the time I’m not wearing sunscreen and I use hats, but if I know I’m going to be in the sun on a boat or something, I will use a mineral based version because I probably don’t have perfect cellular health. None of us can with the food industry that we’re exposed to, but that would be my little nuanced take, but in general it sounds like we’re fairly aligned on the topic.
Katie: I actually love that like that level of nuance and understanding for that and i’ll just say anecdotally I noticed that in that when I was working on healing the thyroid issues going on and I knew I had inflammation in my body, and growing up just being fair skinned and Irish background, I would burn very easily.
And I’m 100 percent in agreement with you. Burning is never beneficial. In fact, a company I advise, they did a meta analysis of all of the available data about skin cancer risk in the sun. And what stood out to me was that it’s actually exactly to your point, burning is what increases our risk of skin cancer.
So we for sure don’t want to burn, a hundred percent. But what was interesting to me was as I worked on healing my gut and my inflammation, I seem like my skin also got more resilient. So now I’m able to spend, I don’t ever push it too far. I don’t burn, but I’m able to spend time in the sun and I tan more naturally without ever burning.
So it does seem like what you just explained that kind of connection to what’s going on in our body and especially seemingly those sort of magical fats that support our skin from the inside out are really important. And I’ll link to, I wrote about this kind of eating my sunscreen, but just how to nourish from the inside out and I agree with your approach.
It’s kind of a both and, and I’m with you. I wear hats if I’m out for a long time during the day, but I love that that’s your approach.
Katie: Yeah, we actually hear from clients that, and this was my case too, of I can spend time in the sun and I don’t burn as easily or they just feel like they tan easily. I mean, I am very fair skinned. I got burned a lot as a kid and now that’s not the case. So this is something that we hear from clients and I know in the previous episode we briefly touched on iron and you had mentioned copper, that also plays a role.
So if someone has too much iron cycling in their body, they may be more vulnerable to getting sunburns. And so getting that cycling, that process cycling well, can also impact how your skin receptors are working in response to the sun.
Katie: Oh, that’s so interesting. Okay, that’s super helpful to know. A couple other things I want to make sure we get to because they came from reader questions. One being there’s obviously a popularity around collagen and wanting to support our skin’s collagen and I’m curious your take on is this a direct thing like eat collagen to support collagen?
Are there other variables going on in there like where we actually need to take collagen plus other things for it to benefit our skin? Are supplements not effective to begin with? Or what do you recommend for people who are just maybe like, I would prefer to look like I’m aging a little less than I am, when it comes to collagen or, and or anything else that’s helpful.
Robyn: Yeah. When it comes to oral collagen, using it as a supplement, the reason that I’m a fan is not because… collagen alone isn’t going to make you more collagen. That’s just not how it works, but the amino acids in collagen can help in many ways, including supporting collagen. So I mean, especially with collagen when we think about eating animal proteins, we ideally we’re eating the whole animal. We’ve got muscle meats, which is most commonly what people eat. Ideally you’re consuming bone broth for the amino acids in there and the collagen building properties in there and organ meats. Collagen in a powder form is a way to almost mimic the bone broth category. You’re getting different amino acids in higher dosage. So things like glycine, which are not as high in muscle meats. So I do like collagen to kind of balance out the amino acid profile. And yes, there are benefits to skin, but it’s not, I mean, you’re really not going to see a big shift in, Oh my gosh, I look 10 years younger cause I was eating collagen.
But you are benefiting your skin and just body in general by consuming those amino acids. I’d actually recommend red light therapy as a stronger tool to support collagen production than… I mean, I think physically people will see that faster than they’d see anything from consuming collagen. So and then we get into minerals. There’s a lot of minerals like silica and magnesium that also help with skin repair.
And I mean, you’re fighting aging, essentially you’re fighting stress, so we need those minerals for that reason, but minerals in general would also be, in my opinion, be in the same camp as a level of importance for skin health just as collagen would be.
Katie: Awesome. Great advice. And last specific question that came from a reader. I know this won’t apply to everybody, but someone’s struggling with perioral dermatitis. And understanding what is that? And are there ways to help it go away? It sounds like it can be very not fun to have.
Robyn: No, not fun to have, very frustrating, and most of the time a topical treatment is the conventional route, but again, if it’s a chronic issue, why are you getting it? And this is typically dermatitis around the mouth. What we see from an internal perspective, there’s often with our clients, often an iodine connection or a fluoride sensitivity.
And this is a whole rabbit hole. But I said this earlier, we do iodine testing on all of our clients. And there’s a big reason because if iodine and other halogens like fluoride are competing, then oftentimes the fluoride wins, and it can create a skin reaction. It’s actually been coined as fluoroderma. There’s actually a former FBI investigator that has written a whole book on fluoride and how it affects the skin. It’s quite interesting. But that is one thing that I would recommend looking into if you’re struggling with per oral dermatitis, is what your fluoride intake or exposure is. And that can even be in toothpaste, but also absolutely in your drinking water. And possibly looking at what iodine needs are. That can be food or safely supplementing. I say safely because I don’t recommend people go into high dose iodine supplementation without proper awareness of thyroid health, but it is something that can make a big big impact on skin.
Katie: That’s really fascinating. So I haven’t heard that theory explained before. So basically, fluoride could be an issue going on, but also they might need more iodine, but in a very narrow kind of range to kind of get that thread the needle correctly.
Robyn: So what happens is the iodine competes at a cellular level with fluoride. So if you start introducing iodine, especially at a higher dose, you basically flush out fluoride and sometimes that can create a reaction on the skin. Same thing can be with bromide or chlorine. So with clients who get, I mean we have clients who will take their kids to a pool not even be in the water, but the exposure to chlorine exacerbates their eczema.
And in those situations, we very much want to look at the iodine relationship because iodine can essentially flush out these halogens, which is a good thing, but it can also exacerbate the skin. So it’s just a process that we kind of have to fix what doses of iodine and these halogens are in the body and kind of rebalance them.
Katie: That’s so helpful. And I actually have a note from researching for this episode also to touch on B12 and biotin and how they can potentially actually be connected to acne. Is that true? Or other skin issues? Like, what do people need to know about if they’re taking certain nutrients, thinking they’re helpful, but if they can have a downside as well.
Robyn: Yeah, a lot of people will take targeted B12 or targeted biotin because they’re in a lot of hair, skin, and nail products and then their skin gets worse. And so, kind of like we were talking about the food, with the food is those nutrients now get blamed for causing acne. But the problem is these nutrients shouldn’t be done in isolation, especially if you don’t have evidence for it. So we would never just give someone B12 unless we’re looking at labs and there’s a reason for it. We do not have clients react to biotin or B12 or iodine when it’s done in the right way. And this is where you just have to look at the body as a whole. All of these minerals and nutrients have antagonists and synergists. So sometimes one will push down another or taking one will increase another and they work together or fight each other. And that’s important to consider if you’re taking something and it’s getting worse. I wouldn’t say that the the problem is actually B12 or biotin are worsening acne.
I would say that something else is missed in the big picture of the nutrients that you need and taking things isolated like that, unless you have data is probably the actual problem.
Katie: Super helpful context. And I love how deep we got to go in several different areas during this podcast. And like I said, if you missed our first one, that was more in the acne realm. And this one got to dive into so many others. I’m guessing there’s still things we haven’t covered. So maybe we’ll get to do a round three at some point. But for anybody who is experiencing any of the things we talked about in this episode, where can they find you online and keep learning from you and hopefully figure out their own root cause solutions?
Robyn: You bet. My Instagram is at Nutrition by Robin. That’s Robin with a Y. And then all of our free resources, information, our programs, etc. is theclearskinlab. com.
Katie: Amazing. Well, I will make sure all of those links are included in the show notes. For any of you guys listening, on the go, Robyn, I’ve learned so much. This was a very fascinating conversation and I thought I actually understood quite a bit of this going in. So I am so grateful to you for everything that you’ve shared today and for all that I’ve gotten to learn.
Thank you so much for being here.
Robyn: Thanks for having me, Katie.
Katie: And thank you as always for listening and sharing your most valuable resources, your time, your energy, and your attention with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did. And I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the wellness mama podcast.
Katie Wells, CTNC, MCHC, Founder of Wellness Mama and Co-founder of Wellnesse, has a background in research, journalism, and nutrition. As a mom of six, she turned to research and took health into her own hands to find answers to her health problems. WellnessMama.com is the culmination of her thousands of hours of research and all posts are medically reviewed and verified by the Wellness Mama research team. Katie is also the author of the bestselling books The Wellness Mama Cookbook and The Wellness Mama 5-Step Lifestyle Detox.
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